Tenkara

fixed line fly fishing
CM_Stewart

Post by CM_Stewart »

One of the guys on the Tenkara USA forum graciously offered to weigh some lines for me, and also sent an email to Sage to ask what the weights were for their 000, 00 and 0 weight lines. Sage's response, which was so surprising he wrote back to confirm, was that the first 30 feet of the 000 weighed 57 grains, the 00 weighed 60 and the 0 weighed 65 grains - which puts all of them within the official range of an AFTMA 1 weight. If you are now using a 00, the difference between it and a 000 for the length of line you are using would probably be indistinguishable.

As a comparison, the Tenkara USA furled line, extrapolated to 30 feet, would be just under 30 grains, the 15# test pink line would be just under 28, and the 10# test pink line would be 21 grains.

I have not tried any of the braids, but my guess is that they would not work well because they are so light - meaning they have such a low specific gravity that they float. Density is critical in casting a light line, in that the biggest problem is overcoming the "wind resistance" of the cast - so you want the line that has the smallest cross section possible but still enough mass to cast. That is why the denser fluorocarbon casts so much better than nylon mono, or the furled line made from nylon mono. For that matter, the Malin BOA 20# test titanium leader, at .008" diameter, probably casts beautifully, whereas you couldn't cast 3x fluorocarbon, let alone 3x mono.

I suspect that I am on the extreme fringe with respect to line weight, in that I don't want a line that floats - I want a line that is so light that I can hold the whole line off the water.
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adam
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Post by adam »

Much of what we are discussing was addressed at the below thread.

http://www.tenkarausa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=128

I am not suprised to read your post above, it just makes sense.
CM_Stewart wrote:I think the US tenkara community is too small and too new to have gotten to that point yet. I don't have a scale, and I don't recall any one else having mentioned weighing lines yet.

I haven't read enough about tapers / line weights / rod loading to know the details about what bamboo rod makers do or how it would translate to tenkara lines. A few questions immediately come to mind, however. To my knowledge, there is no standard line length in tenkara, so what length of line should be measured? Is there an objective measure of rod loading? I haven't really looked for one, but the only one I've heard of is the "common cents" system, and tenkara rods are long enough that they would be hard to measure using it. In my playing around with different lines, I feel that line stiffness is also a factor in how I like one line relative to another (a Maxima butt does seem to work better than a Stren butt).

Is the material you've written on the silk line/leader configurations accessible on the web? I think I've got a lot to learn.
I'm looking at a tenkara rod as a fly rod i.e. casting the line using the weight of the line.

I do not look at a 000 or a 00 or even a 0 as lumped in as a one weight. I believe at the gossamir range of casting such as tenkara rods cast, minute measurements will be paramount to describing lines. You could scale the weight so minutely however the reynolds number changes drastically at that scale...
Daniel wrote:What a great read, and it's just amazing what may happen when an "innovation" is brought about, it just builds onto itself.
To my knowledge there is not that much scientific studying of line weights/mass to the point your discussions are already reaching. I think the points touched upon, that some will lean toward the "mass" camp, others toward the "stiffness" is valid, and that most lines are based more on characteristics rather than exacting specifications. I'll have to sit on the wayside for this discussion, but am greatly enjoying reading it. I'll be bringing the topic up to Dr. Ishigaki to see what the thinking is in Japan.
Adam, thanks for bringing it up.
I like the way Daniel is looking at it.

There will be mass, stiffness and aerodynamic resistance and all of them will relate to the characteristics of the line.

I am suprised that this has not already been developed and marketed seeing how easy tenkara is. Fly fishers obviously are embracing it and I belive most of the guys buying the rods from the fly fishing camp are at least versed in AFTMA rating i.e. a 5-weight fly rod.


When I was on the Loop team, I was taught a whole lot about fly lines and have constructed many using bits and pieces of fly lines and fly line kits and mono, various other lines as well.

I'm hoping that we continue towards a line rating system or at least a way to describe the configuration of a line.

I like conventional PVC line for the main body and a flourocarbon end for most of my small streams. The properties of this line work best for me vs. the level mono lines. I am not using the tenkara rod to fish sub-surface the way you guys do and I am not a "tenkara purist" in that I use a tenkara rod only. There are far more applications for a conventional fly rod than for a tenkara rod but I do enjoy it and it is interesting to see the developement of tenkara rods (and lines) in the usa.
pcg

Post by pcg »

Leaping backwards, that is, away from the high tech discussion & toward practical fishing, I note that I spent a few hours this afternoon on my favorite small stream. A week ago when I fished it, I used the braided Tenkara USA line with 4-ft of 4x tippet. Casting was no joy.

Today using the same braided line I shifted to 12" of 4x tippet followed by 3'+ of 6x: to my surprise it cast quite nicely. For the first time I was able to make somewhat pinpoint casts.

Amazing how these very subtle changes that might be less than detectable on a fly rod make such a difference on the Ebisu.

I'm beginning to really like this rod/line combo. And I love the fact that I don't have 15-20-ft of fly line floating on the surface. Way cool.
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SnooKen
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Ponderings from Canepole County

Post by SnooKen »

1) The Ebisu model is currently out of stock which indicates either a) It is selling well and the factory will be cranking out a bunch more, or b)) There was some kind of production issue and we shall see that rod model no more. So, what about stripping the cork off another model and building a wooden grip reamed to fit the butt section?

2) How well do you think the rod would work for fishing Hewitt-style skater flies?

3) Roll casting: Best taper?

4) Anybody considered sanding out the gloss finish and redoing with a subtle matte blue-gray for improving the stealth factor?

5) For bigger fish could heavier tippet be used if highsticking is avoided during the fight?

6) How about adding on a removable "fighting butt" extension if you wanted to cast 2-handed on occasion?
The rods you guys are making today would cause Hiram, Edwards and the Paynes as well as Fred Devine to crap their pants then giggle like boys peeking into the girls' locker room as they strung them up and laid out the first casts.
pcg

Post by pcg »

Ken,
All good questions. Chris would be better to respond to many of these, but here's my take: The line is unique in that its weight is so much lighter than any fly line. Consequently conventional casts--roll casts, Spey-style casts--are not particularly useful. Also, the line length is too short--imagine a 12-14' long line max. How do you roll cast that with a 12-ft rod? And the casting style itself is completely different, given the featherweight line.

Personally, I'm growing to love its stealthy uses. And now that I'm (slowly) understanding the technique, my accuracy is acceptable. I was actually popping flies out to where I intended.

My summary is that it's not comparable to anything I've cast/used in the fly fishing world. So all of my decades of casting experience has to be throw out, that is, all except the basic concepts. But the technique cannot be compared to what we've used before.
Pat
CM_Stewart

Re: Ponderings from Canepole County

Post by CM_Stewart »

SnooKen wrote:1) The Ebisu model is currently out of stock which indicates either a) It is selling well and the factory will be cranking out a bunch more, or b)) There was some kind of production issue and we shall see that rod model no more. So, what about stripping the cork off another model and building a wooden grip reamed to fit the butt section?

2) How well do you think the rod would work for fishing Hewitt-style skater flies?

3) Roll casting: Best taper?

4) Anybody considered sanding out the gloss finish and redoing with a subtle matte blue-gray for improving the stealth factor?

5) For bigger fish could heavier tippet be used if highsticking is avoided during the fight?

6) How about adding on a removable "fighting butt" extension if you wanted to cast 2-handed on occasion?
1. I'm sure the Ebisu has not been discontinued. Given that tenkara in the US was a completely new product and there was no way to perfectly predict demand, I suspect that initial production runs of each model were modest. Other models also sold out and are now back in the mix (and Daniel perhaps should have reordered a bit sooner than he did). I suspect you could strip the cork and regrip another model, but the action of the Ebisu is different from the other rods, and to my mind, getting the action you want is more important than the grip material. Besides, Tenkara USA has at least one independent retailer carrying the rods, and as of earlier this week, it still had the Ebisu in stock.

2. I don't fish Hewitt skaters, but my guess is that the extra wind resistance of the extra large hackle would require a heavier line than I would want to fish on a tenkara rod. That said, with the light line that I do fish, you could probably skate a fly with only slightly longer than standard length hackle.

3. The line I fish is too short to roll cast.

4. If I wasn't catching fish as it is I would consider it. I know others have asked the same question but I don't know if anyone has done it.

5. The problem with heavier tippet is that you will eventually get your fly snagged far enough away that you cannot reach the line and have to pull straight back on the rod to break the tippet. The heavier the tippet, the greater the chance that your telescopic sections will become so jammed together that you break the rod when you try to collapse it at the end of the day. There's a guy on the Tenkara USA forum that learned that the hard way - twice.

6. I can't imagine why you would want to cast two handed, even with the 13' Ayu (although the Ayu grip is certainly long enough to do so). I frequently still have to conciously remember to cast more softly, with a shorter, gentler stroke. It's all finesse, no force.



edited to add: If you want a wooden grip on a different rod, Michael Hackney is planning to offer custom birchbark grips on the Iwana model.
A photo of his birchbark grip on a fly rod: http://eclecticguy.com/2009/04/06/birch ... -rod-grip/
Last edited by CM_Stewart on Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
pcg

Post by pcg »

It's all finesse, no force.
There it is, Ken. A good summation of the technique.
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adam
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Post by adam »

We are very fortunate to have Chris here.

I have learned on my own what he says is good form.
CM_Stewart

Post by CM_Stewart »

Now that you've mentioned the skaters, though, I have to try them. I don't have hackle that's nearly good enough for them to fish correctly, but I just tied a few (1.75" dia.) to see if I can even cast them. Will let you know in a few days (assuming the weather holds).
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SnooKen
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Post by SnooKen »

Thanks for the good information and advice, it is greatly appreciated. All in all it seems as though the the differences are greater than the similarities between modern flyfishing and Tenkara. Plus, I'm probably already trying to complicate a simple process.

As far as skater flies for Tenkara go, modern genetic hackle is the opposite of what is needed to tie 'em but in a "micro skater" size suitable for Tenkara casting appropriate hackle should be easier to come by. Then the big question becomes "will the tip survive the strikes"? Maybe a short section of shock gum would prove beneficial?

Thanks again for your input.
The rods you guys are making today would cause Hiram, Edwards and the Paynes as well as Fred Devine to crap their pants then giggle like boys peeking into the girls' locker room as they strung them up and laid out the first casts.
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